Menus

• Classic from the 1970s
• The Twins once had a hard time
• The Ducati 860 GTS has always been family owned
• 750 GT is even more pleasing to the eye
• Norton Commando – and nothing else
• Mk III is Alois ‘everyday vehicle
• Norton Commando 850 willingly works in an inclined position
• The sporty genes of Ducati can be felt
• Ducati 860 GTS (1976-1979)
• Purchase check
• history
• Norton Commando 850 (1973-1977)
• Purchase check
• history
• Opinions

32 photos

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Ducati 860 GTS and Norton Commando 850 on the move.

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Ducati 860 GTS and Norton Commando 850 on the move.

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Fritz Roth, the German Ducati importer, advertised with pithy words: “The Ducati 860 GTS is fundamentally different from all other motorcycles in its class …

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… A unique construction. Built for the individualist “.

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Norton Commando 850 Mk III: It is always an experience with what force the beefy parallel twin horse and rider catapulted out of the corners without a start.

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Norton Commando 850 Mk III.

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The first test of the Norton Commando 850 appeared in MOTORRAD 3/1974.

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In the first test of the 850 Commando in MOTORRAD 3/74 there was a lot of praise for the handling, but the future chances of the great Norton were judged skeptically.

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Slacker: In the 850 Commando, the final stage of the Norton Twin, which made its debut in 1949, is booming. Oil leaks? Not with Alois!

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Amal carburetors traditionally ventilate the light metal combustion chambers of the Norton.

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Snappy? Nope, the brakes are quite toothless. Bassy? But yes, the sound is terrific!

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The traditional black / gold looks great on the Norton.

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Mk III with Veglia watches. Ignition lock holder made of aluminum instead of plastic, which often crumbles.

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1973: Parallel to the Interstate with a 26-liter tank, the Commando 850 is also offered as a slim roadster with a short bench and a 15-liter tank. Price: 6450 marks.

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Wolfgang Flurer is the owner of the Ducati 860 GTS. He likes the GTS the way it is.

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In the early prospectus of the Commando 850, Norton quotes the statements of several motorcycle testers who praised the handling, appearance and smoothness of the traditional British parallel twin.

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In the early prospectus of the Commando 850, Norton quotes the statements of several motorcycle testers who praised the handling, appearance and smoothness of the traditional British parallel twin.

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Ducati 860 GTS and Norton Commando 850.

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The charismatic Konigswellen-V2 is a technical delicacy that masters the entire repertoire of an inspiring country road drive.

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Ducati 860 GTS.

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It was only three years after the presentation of the 860 GT that MOTORRAD was able to clarify in issue 10/76 whether the Ducati 860 GTS not only looks better but also drives better than the GT.

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It was only three years after the presentation of the 860 GT that MOTORRAD was able to clarify in issue 10/76 whether the GTS not only looks better but also drives better than the GT.

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The Ducati 860 GTS cost 8,120 marks in 1976.

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Compared to the 750 round motors, the vertical shaft V2 of the 860 models with the angular side covers is seven centimeters wider.

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Simple elegance: the headlight is held in place by inconspicuous wire brackets.

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The blue paintwork is new, as are the cast aluminum wheels instead of spoked wheels.

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Chrome on blue, you look very carefully: here the fuel cap.

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Everything original, even the mileage! GTS with calm indicating instruments.

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The modified 860 V2 has more torque and a more stable crankshaft.

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1974: The 860 GT designed by Giorgetto Giugiaro shocked the Ducatisti with its angular, unbalanced proportions. The electric starter was only optional (860 GTE). Price: 7,000 marks.

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1977: Ducati adds the more pleasing SD 900 Darmah to the GTS. It is Ducati’s first touring athlete with a Desmo-V2, which also hangs in a new frame. Price: 9230 marks.

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Alois Blum is the owner of the Norton Commando 850. He thinks that the Commando really stands out from the uniformity of models.

On the move with Ducati 860 GTS and Norton Commando 850

Classic from the 1970s

Content of

With the Ducati 860 GTS and Norton Commando 850, two extremely powerful representatives of Italy and England meet. But the two two-cylinder engines have more in common than just good tone.

E.England versus Italy – in football this is an encounter that Germany’s imperial figure of light would comment on with a Bavarian “it’s a classic”. When the “kick and rush” of the “Three Lions” meets the controlled defense of the “Squadra Azzura”, emotions traditionally boil. On this sunny morning they packed Alois, Wolfgang and me too. Because we are also looking forward to a classic competition between these two nations. Which, however, is not held on the world stage of sport, but takes its course in the paved inner courtyard of a historic property in the Bergisches Land.

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On the move with Ducati 860 GTS and Norton Commando 850
Classic from the 1970s

Norton Commando 850, which with its pleasing proportions and the gold-rimmed black exudes an elegant timelessness. And there the elongated Ducati 860 GTS from Wolfgang, whose fresh blue / silver Giorgetto Giugiaro’s daring design emphasizes rather than relativizes. So two motorcycles that, despite many similarities, develop a very different effect that attracts more and more passers-by, regardless of whether they are young or old. Thumbs up, an appreciative nod of the head – no question about it, the 40-year-old two-cylinder engines are well received today.

The Twins once had a hard time

But things looked a little different four decades ago. In the mid-1970s, the Norton Commando 850 was one of the last survivors of the ailing British motorcycle industry. It was considered a dinosaur and a symbol of a mistake in England that relied solely on evolution, when the revolution from Japan could no longer be stopped for a long time.

Ducati was not in an easy position at the time either. The semi-public Italian manufacturer had to face the challenge from the Far East with a beautiful and charismatic, but performance-wise, vertical shaft V2, which was constantly falling behind. The sometimes fluctuating manufacturing quality and increasingly restrictive noise regulations did not make this project any easier. Similar to Norton, Ducati primarily addressed buyers for whom tradition and character were more important than performance and problem-free functionality in everyday life. But this clientele was dwindling. And downright distraught when she saw the result of the work of star designer Giugiaro in 1973. The 860 GT, the new touring model with a thoroughly revised V2 (see box on the right), had given it an edgy style that took a lot of getting used to. And so came what had to come: The Ducati 860 GT was a veritable flop.

The Ducati 860 GTS has always been family owned

Ducati reacted quickly, however, and at the end of 1975, the first year in which the 860 GT was also available for sale in Germany, the GT was accompanied by the much more pleasing GTS. This also convinced Wolfgang’s later brother-in-law, who bought the blue Ducati 860 GTS in 1978. And the then ten-year-old Wolfgang infected with the Ducati virus when he first visited his older sister. “This sonorous bang of the V2 was clearly different from the screeching two-stroke engines and the high-revving Japan four-cylinder engines, it really got under your skin,” remembers Wolfgang of this key experience.

After the sister’s marriage, however, the Ducati 860 GTS was deregistered in 1979, with just 8000 kilometers on the clock. Her deep sleep lasted until 2009, then Wolfgang was finally allowed to take care of her. Technically, the GTS was in good condition. Nevertheless, together with his son, Wolfgang renewed all shaft seals and the carburetors, overhauled the front disc brake system and brought the electrics up to date. The 47-year-old from Hohenloher dismantled the closed chain case so that he could fit a more stable chain – the brother-in-law’s weak original had already torn twice. Then the tank, side cover and the mudguards were painted true to the original and all aluminum parts were polished. However, the long service life had so damaged the standard spoke wheels that they had to be replaced. Wolfgang decided on aluminum wheels, as they were offered as an option for the GTS in England. The Paioli shock absorbers are also not standard, but they harmonize very well with the 860, as Wolfgang assures.

750 GT is even more pleasing to the eye

The elongated silhouette of the Ducati 860 GTS also radiates harmony. It may be that my view of a vertical shaft V2 today is generally a slightly transfigured one. For me, the idiosyncratic independence of the GTS certainly has its charm, although the 750 GT with its narrow round engine is even more pleasing to the eye. The latter is seven centimeters narrower than the “angular” 860. The design changes simply require more space, as does the standard starter motor between the cylinders on the GTS.

Changes continued to be made to the chassis of the 860 models. Straight instead of curved frame top tubes and squashed lower motor mounts instead of cylindrical eyelets promised a more cost-effective production. Thanks to the welded-in reinforcements to the top tubes, the 860 GT / GTS and the machine, which was renamed the 900 GTS in the last model year, were the only upright shaft twins that the factory certified as suitable for sidecars. In these models, the chain slack is presumably set using two large eccentrics. Because they take up the swing arm at the same time and thus form an effective reinforcement in the area of ​​the swing arm mounting. There was an exchange with the suppliers of the spring elements. The telescopic fork for the Ducati 860 GTS was now supplied by Ceriani, while the suspension struts came from Marzocchi – previously it was the other way around. In view of the increasingly restrictive noise limits in many countries, an effective air filter and quieter silencers were still important for sales opportunities.

Norton Commando – and nothing else

At Norton, they had done this homework with the launch of the 850 Commando in 1973. Of course, what doesn’t stop Norton enthusiasts like Alois from doing so is the Norton Commando 850 with the slim, open roadster bags and K.&To help N filters achieve the legendary Nor tone. The Mk III is one of four Commandos that Alois cherishes in his fine workshop. At the age of 23 he had already gathered all his savings and all his courage and bought his first used commando. When the children came, the Englishwoman had to give way to a Guzzi team after an educational year. At some point there was a BMW R 1100 R in the garage – and at the first opportunity it was exchanged for the same 850 Commando Mk III that had caused a dentist from Aachen more annoyance than joy.

Alois was happy, “because there was nothing to be done at BMW”. Besides, he’d always mourned his first Norton a little. After this exchange a good twelve years ago, the Norton fever really broke out for the business graduate. “I’ve always been very technically oriented and like screwing.” That suits him very well with the Commandos. “In the meantime I have acquired a lot of specialist knowledge, since I only deal with commandos.” Two more roadsters, built from parts, and a beautifully restored Mk II are an expression of the passion of the self-taught who does everything on his Nortons himself. Of course, the manageable changes during the almost 40-year production period suit him. The technical innovations on the Norton Commando 850, our photo model, were limited to the shift lever now on the left side and the rear disc brake.

Mk III is Alois ‘everyday vehicle

The Mk III is Alois ‘everyday vehicle, which the light patina does not rob of its dignity. This also applies to the few changes he made to the British woman. Because the rare 22-liter tank does not make the Interstate look quite as brawny as with the 26-liter barrel. Another advantage of the 18-inch rear wheel is the larger choice of tires. And the Rhinelander apparently doesn’t need an electric starter – a standard feature of the Norton Commando 850. Which is why he unceremoniously welded the housing cover shut.

What is now taking revenge. The battery of the Norton Commando 850 weakens just for the photo production, the Boyer ignition only supplies a weak spark. So I’m not unhappy that Alois is the starter for me after a few unsuccessful attempts. With the first hit my skepticism evaporates, full of anticipation I let the clutch come on. Oh, just terrific, how smoothly the brawny parallel twin Ross and Reiter catapulted forward! Immediately the memory of the 850 roadster of our anniversary drive is back, which had put such a big grin on my face that I could hardly get my helmet off. A magic that also works on the somewhat more voluminous interstate.

Norton Commando 850 willingly works in an inclined position

Thanks to the larger tank, it even offers the rider, who is positioned in the traditional gentleman’s position on the comfortable bench, better knee grip. A slight pressure with the thigh, a gentle tug on the wide handlebar – the Norton Commando 850 willingly folds into an inclined position. Quickly into the corner and back out again with a lot of pressure and noise – this Ballermann is a real giver of joy on such narrow, angled streets as here in the Bergisches Land! It doesn’t matter that the Langhuber isn’t quite as fiery at the top. Shift up earlier and enjoy the full draft is the motto. The four gears engage exactly, provided that the longer lever path is bridged with emphatic consistency. The smoothness of the run is astonishing, nothing more than a gentle pulsation can be felt in the handlebars and footrests. The mechanical noises of this time-honored construction are also conspicuously inconspicuous.

The toothless disc brakes work too cautiously for my taste, and the suspension elements feel more committed to comfort than to unmistakable feedback. Nevertheless, you remain calm in the saddle of the Norton Commando 850 even when it shakes and pumps a little in brisk, undulating curves. It simply shows that she doesn’t feel so comfortable at a forced pace. Nevertheless, as a pilot, you always have the reassuring feeling of always being in command of the British woman. Whether the Ducati 860 GTS can do that too?

The sporty genes of Ducati can be felt

The short answer is yes! And with flying colors. The Ducati 860 GTS makes no secret of the fact that sport has always enjoyed a high priority at Borgo Panigale. The touring model feels correspondingly comfortable when it is brisk. Well, the Ducati doesn’t lean as readily as the Norton, curves have to be initiated with a determined impulse via the wide handlebars. But then it follows the targeted line precisely and very stably, its crystal-clear feedback compared to the Norton Commando 850 gives me a lot of confidence from the first meter.

This also applies to the brakes. The front Brembo double disc needs a gripping hand, but then bites firmly and easily. Even the comfort is okay. The tightly damped spring elements of the Ducati do not master the cuddly course of the English lady, but the Ducati 860 GTS flits much more confidently over bumpy stretches of road than the Norton Commando 850. I am therefore happy to accept that one or the other stroke comes through a little drier. Likewise, the sportier, stretched seating position, which I would definitely enjoy even on longer tours.

Ducati 860 GTS and Norton Commando 850.

The fact that I haven’t said a word about the V2 yet is because I keep the best here for the last. Because the 860 is simply a poem. Below not as powerful as the Norton, it inspires with powerful thrust and sparkling revving up to the red area at 8000 rpm. Also great is the precise five-speed gearbox, the finely adjustable clutch and the high level of smoothness. Vibrations are hardly noticeable on the Ducati 860 GTS, even the rear-view mirrors mostly deliver an undistorted image. Also on the Norton Commando 850. Despite more bangs in the lower speed range, it has to admit defeat to the harmonious twin bevel, which masters the whole repertoire of an excellent country road engine. And the slender Conti bags are pounding and pounding so heartily that tears of joy come to my eyes. Yes, I am absolutely thrilled!

But also torn back and forth. Ducati 860 GTS and Norton Commando 850 hardly give each other anything emotionally. From a rational point of view, however, this country comparison of classic motorcycles also ends like so many football duels between the two nations: the more technically savvy Italians ultimately counter England.

Ducati 860 GTS (1976-1979)

The charismatic Konigswellen-V2 is a technical delicacy that masters the entire repertoire of an inspiring country road drive.

Technical data Ducati 860 GTS

• Engine: Air-cooled two-cylinder four-stroke V-engine, cylinder angle 90 degrees, one overhead camshaft each, driven by a vertical shaft, two valves per cylinder, operated by rocker arms, displacement 864 cm³, output 48 kW (65 PS) at 7000 / min
• Power transmission: multi-disc oil bath clutch, five-speed gearbox, chain drive 
• Chassis: Backbone tubular frame made of steel, telescopic fork at the front, Ø 38 mm, eccentrically mounted two-arm steel tube swing arm, two spring struts, wire-spoke wheels / cast aluminum wheels (English version), tires 3.50 H 18 at the front, 120/90 H 18 at the rear, double disc brake at the front, Ø 280 mm , Two-piston fixed calipers, rear drum brake
• Dimensions and weights: wheelbase 1550 mm, weight with a full tank 235 kg 
• Top speed: 180 km / h
• Price 1976: 8,120 marks

technology

Three years after the start of series production of the Ducati 750 GT, Fabio Taglioni revised his universally praised twin bevel. In 1974 the Ducati 860 GT was the first to receive the modified engine, the bore of which had grown by six to 86 millimeters, the displacement with unchanged stroke (74.4 mm) thus to 864.5 cm³. This went hand in hand with some changes in the angular motor housing. Thanks to the electronic ignition, the interrupter shaft built into the 750 round motors, which also served as a back gear for the upright shaft drive, was no longer necessary. It suffered from the bending vibrations of the right crankshaft stub.

In the 860 engines, the crankshaft drives the vertical shafts via two bevel gears coupled with spur gears via an intermediate gear. The additional end shield of this gear-mimic now offers the right crankshaft stub a stabilizing roller bearing – from then on, defective lower bevel gears were no longer an issue. Another new feature was a bypass oil filter that took the place of the mechanical ignition distributor. Furthermore, better noise reduction in the intake and exhaust system. In addition, tamer tax times created more pressure in the basement. The Ducati 860 GT / GTS had to make do with valve springs, the expensive Desmodromic was still only available for the Supersport models.

Purchase check

Careful warming up and meticulous maintenance are the decisive points for a long service life of the structurally robust vertical shaft motors. Their neuralgic point is the crank drive. With higher mileage, the connecting rod bearings are often worn out. A defect that only a trained ear can hear from the high level of mechanical background noise. In order to be absolutely sure whether the wear limit of eight tenths has been reached or exceeded, experts pull off the lying cylinder and measure the play of its connecting rod. However, only a few suppliers still produce needle bearings for the crank drive with the required precision. The electronic ignition also causes problems with the Ducati 860 GTS. It has three ignition timing curves, of which the first usually breaks.

So if a cylinder suddenly pops out while idling, there is no avoiding the installation of a modern ignition. Also known are worn carburettors (slide and / or its guide) or – rarely – rusted gears with very long idle times. You should also know that the Ducati 860 GTS from chassis number 853788 onwards received modified camshafts that ensure a noticeably better torque curve. And that a complete engine overhaul can cost around 4500 to 5000 euros. Small consolation: most spare parts can currently still be found through specialists. Nevertheless, it is foreseeable that one or the other source of the vertical shaft experts will dry up at some point.

market

The run on the vertical shaft Ducatis has long since pushed up the prices of the once rather unpopular 860 touring models. The Ducati 860 GTS is much more in demand than the quirky GT. The lower limit for proper copies: around 8,000 euros.

Specialists

Michael Nitzsche & team: www.italomotos.de
Kamna: www.ducati-kaemna.de
Anreas Nienhagen: www.desmo-ducati.de

history

1974: The Ducati 860 GT designed by Giorgetto Giugiaro shocked the Ducatisti with its angular, unbalanced proportions. The electric starter was only optional (860 GTE). Price: 7,000 marks

1977: Ducati is providing the GTS with the more pleasing SD 900 Darmah. It is Ducati’s first touring athlete with a Desmo-V2, which also hangs in a new frame. Price: 9230 marks

Norton Commando 850 (1973-1977)

It is always an experience with which force the beefy parallel twin horse and rider catapulted out of the corners without a break.

Technical data Norton Commando 850 (Typ Mk III)

• Engine: Air-cooled two-cylinder four-stroke in-line engine, an underneath camshaft, two valves per cylinder, operated via bumpers and rocker arms, displacement 828 cm³, power 37 kW (50 HP) at 6250 / min
• Power transmission: multi-disc oil bath clutch, four-speed gearbox, chain drive 
• Chassis: double loop frame made of tubular steel, telescopic fork, two-arm swing arm made of tubular steel with two spring struts, wire-spoke wheels, tires 4.10-19 front, 4.10-19 rear, front disc brake, Ø 270 mm, two-piston fixed caliper, rear disc brake, Ø 270 mm
• Dimensions and weights: wheelbase 1440 mm, weight with a full tank 220 kg 
• Top speed: 190 km / h
• Price 1976: 6,800 marks

technology

By and large, the last expansion stage of the 850 Commando engine was the Norton two-cylinder engine that Bert Hopwood had designed in the late 1940s. It was originally launched at 497 cm³ and had all the features traditionally associated with British twins: two long-stroke pistons whizzing up and down in lockstep and two valves per cylinder that are operated via an underlying camshaft, bumpers and rocker arms. Also typical is the vertically split aluminum crankcase, the cast iron cylinders and a three-part crankshaft with double roller bearings and a central flywheel. It is logical that the Norton Commandio 850 also has a separately flange-mounted four-speed gearbox that connects a triplex chain running in an oil bath to the crankshaft via a multi-plate oil bath clutch.

The displacement of the parallel twin grew in several stages over the decades, until 1973, when it reached the end of the flagpole at 828 cm³. This last step was achieved by a bore that was enlarged by four to 77 millimeters compared to the 750 Commando with a stroke of 89 millimeters. The focus here was not on more peak performance, but on higher torque. In order to take the fear out of the vibrations, which steadily increased with the expansion of the displacement, the Norton engineers devised a complex decoupling of the engine, transmission and rear swing arm. In the system called “Isolastic”, these components are attached to a subframe, which is suspended in the main frame via three mounting points using elastic rubber elements.

Purchase check

The help of an expert is recommended for the inspection, because the Norton Commando 850 has a wide range of problem areas. However, these are often due to maintenance errors in the past. The best example of this is the Isolastic, which, if incorrectly adjusted or worn, leads to a spongy driving behavior. The right crankshaft bearing is the weak point of the engine. This should not be taken lightly, because there are no longer any new crankshafts. The piston quality is also not the best. And especially the Mk III models from 1975 onwards weaken with a camshaft that is too soft. Worn carburettors, play-friendly auxiliary bearing shafts in the transmission or broken springs in the automatic gearshift are also not unknown, as are screwed-up threads on the manifolds or broken side stand mounts on the frame. Incidentally, all checkpoints in detail are revealed in the large purchase advice in MOTORRAD Classic 3/2014!

market

Anyone who ponders over the above problems should be reassured: A Norton Commando 850, which has been thoroughly overhauled and neatly constructed by the Norton experts, usually runs as smoothly as other motorcycles of the time. There’s no such thing as a Norton at a bargain price. But at tariffs from around 8000 euros upwards, top models sometimes cost significantly more.

Specialists

Joe Seifert: www.nortonmotors.de
Rudi Kolano: Telephone 082 02/961 43 98

history

1967: The era of the Commando begins with the “Fastback”, initially as a 750 with 56 hp at 6500 rpm. Variants such as “S”, “Roadster” and “Interstate” follow. Price: approx. 5900 marks

1973: Parallel to the Interstate with a 26-liter tank, the Norton Commando 850 is also available as a slim roadster with a short bench and a 15-liter tank. Price: 6450 marks

Opinions

Alois Blum, owner of the Norton Commando 850 (left) and Wolfgang Flurer, owner of the Ducati 860 GTS (right).

Wolfgang Flurer – owner of the Ducati 860 GTS

It was exactly this Ducati GTS 860 that I immediately fell in love with as a ten-year-old. As a child I did my first “dry runs” on it. It is therefore very fortunate for me that I was able to purchase the machine from my nephew six years ago. I then revived them together with my son. I don’t care that the scene paid little attention to the 860 models 40 years ago. I like the GTS the way it is. And that is also the case with many others today, as I can see from the reactions. In addition, with modern tires you are quite brisk on country roads. The Ducati is a pleasure that gets under your skin thanks to the Conti bags.

Alois Blum – owner of the Norton Commando 850

The Norton Commando 850 is one of those motorcycles that once enriched the variety of motorcycles of the 1970s with very idiosyncratic characteristics. Admittedly, it needs regular care and attention, but it makes up for it with its playful handiness, the fantastic torque in the lower speed range and of course the unique Nor tone. Of course, I also find the look very attractive. Especially today, when a Commando really stands out from the uniformity of models. It once set standards on narrow, winding roads. And is still good at music today. To me, moving a Norton is more than riding a motorcycle – it’s addicting!

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